Help with locality near Ǻsbo parish

[Douglas A Nelson]

Hello,  Can someone please help me with translating the birth Ort for Pehr Andersson, born 2 January 1753 (line 14 from the bottom in the attached clerical exam from Ǻsbo AI:1, p. 103)? 

Thank you,
Doug Nelson

[Ulla Lundell]

Hello Doug


I found you Pehr Andersson in Åsbo A1:1 page 212 picture 115.
He lived in Basteberg/Timerö Torp He was born in Säby 2 of January 1753.


All the best from Ulla

[Klas Wallén]

Hi!

Timmerö was divided into north and south and Basteberg croft was under North Timmerö. Today Timmerö is a part of the small town of Boxholm, where my mother grew up. Here is a link to a kind of local historical society in Boxholm. The text is in Swedish but there are several pictures of the area.

http://www.krafttaget.com/timmero_bjursdalen.htm

By the way Säby is a socken/Parish some 20 kilometers South of Åsbo in a new region called Jönköpings Län.

Regards Klas

[Douglas A Nelson]

Dear Ulla and Klas,

Many thanks to you both for the prompt help!  I looked in the Säby birth records for Pehr Andersson's birth on 2 Jan 1753; but I could not find a Pehr born in 1753.  However, there appears to be a boy named Pehr born on 2 Jan 1754 (in the middle of the left-hand page), but the record is very difficult for me to read (see attached).  I believe the mother's name is Maria Månsdotter, but I cannot read the father's name, or what farm they may have lived on.  I wonder if someone might be able to read this birth record for me and confirm if the father's name is Anders?

Thank you again,
Doug

[Leif Lundkvist]

No, the father is Jon and the family is here, Säby AI:1 (1759-9999) Bild 164 / sid 306 (AID: v22030.b164.s306, NAD: SE/VALA/00361). But the mother is Maria Månsdotter.

[Klas Wallén]

I suspect that the widow Anna Stina Olofsdotter above Per Andersson in Basteberg can be his mother or mother in law. I could not find a Per born in Säby with a father named Anders and a mother named Anna Stina between 1753-1755. Per Andersson was married three times, first in 1785 when he is a dräng (name for a rural worker or a son) in Basteberg, with Helena Månsdotter from South Timmerö, second time in 1787 with Catharina Jonsdotter from South Timmerö, and the third time in 1798 with the widow Lena Eriksdotter.

I will perhaps be able to have some more looks at this little mystery.

Regards Klas.

[Britt-Marie Waller]

Per Andersson was married five times, not three!

Marriage number 1: 1785-10-30 dräng Pehr Andersson at Basteberg with pigan Helena Månsdotter at Södra Timmerö (C:2 Åsbo p 402). Helena died in Basteberg from childbirth 1787-03-21, 36 years old (C:2 Åsbo p 519).

Marriage number 2: 1787-10-28 Widower Pehr Andersson at Basteberg and pigan Catharina Johansdotter from Södra Timmerö (C:2 Åsbo p 403). Catharina died at Basteberg in 1790-01-04 from stroke (she hade risen from the kitchentable and just fell over and died!), 48 years old (C:2 Åsbo p 520).

Marriage number 3: 1790-10-31 Widower Pehr Andersson at Basteberg and Cajsa Carlsdotter at Timmerötorp (C:2 Åsbo p 404). Cajsa/Catharina died at Basteberg 1797-05-04 from "venerisk illness", 30 years old (C:2 Åsbo p 525).

Marriage number 4: 1798-01-01 Widower Pehr Andersson at Basteberg and the widow Lena Eriksdotter at the same place (C:2 Åsbo p 406). Lena died at Basteberg 1829-05-08 from old age, 75 years old (C:4 Åsbo p 401).

Marriage number 5: 1831-07-08 Widower Pehr Andersson at Stampstugan, Norra Timmerö ägor and pigan Greta Månsdotter from Syllerbro.

Pehr Andersson and his 4th wife Lena Eriksdotter can be found at AI:2 Åsbo, N Timmerö properties p 273. AI:3 p 178 and 1812 to Sätterstorp p 198. AI:4 N Timmerö properties p 152, AI:5 p 152, AI:7 p 218 Stampstugan, AI.9  219, AI:13 p 198. Pehr Andersson dies at Stampstugan 1844-12-09 (C:4 Åsbo p 436).

There is an estate inventory for Göstrings häradsrätt FII:32 p 1009 for Pehr Andersson at Stampstugan, the widow Greta Månsdotter. Two children, Anders and Anna Maja married to Nils Johansson at Karsbo.

The children must be Anders born 1792-04-20 Basteberg (C:3 Åsbo p 273) and Anna 1794-12-15 (C:3 p 285). The mother is Carin/Cajsa/Catharina Carlsdotter.

Regards

Britt-Marie

[Douglas A Nelson]

Thank you all for your help!  The detailed records that Britt-Marie are very useful.  I lost track of Pehr around 1816; thank you for finding the rest of his life!  In two of the later household exams that Britt-Marie found, his birth is given as 5 January 1743, not 1753.  I looked in Säby C3, p. 167 and there appears to be a Pehr born in early January, but again I cannot decipher the father's name (these Säby records are among the most difficult I have ever found).  His death record again gives the 1753 birth year.

I wonder if someone could please have a look a this and tell me the father's name.

Thank you again,
Doug

[Klas Wallén]

Hi!

I think the priest first wrote a "p" and then changed it to what seems to be "Lars Eriksson" alternatively "Carl" but that is not so likely. The mother is called Brita Nilsdotter and I think they lived in Bråtestugan. That was a cotage under the farm Bråten in Säby. I did not find any Lars or Brita under Bråten or some of the Bråten crofts in Säby AI/1 page 27 though, but a Carl with a wife called Annika. Interesting though, that it is actually on January 2, 1743, that we can find a Per. Off cource the priest sometimes wrote totally wrong names in the records but so far we can't say that it is your Per we can see there. There are some documents in both Säby and Åsbo telling who moved in and out the Parish but a quick look could not find Anders with wife Anna Stina Olofsdotter. But as I wrote earlier Anna Stina could be a mother in law not Pers mother. I recommend you to take a look at the register for moving in and out for Åsbo and Säby.  There is an Anders Persson and an Anna Olofsdotter who got married in Åsbo in 1743 (Åsbo C/2 page 384). I am not sure they are the parents of your Per though. The Anna Stina who can be seen under Basteberg in A/1 can be found in Åsbo C/2 page 169 with soldier Olof Frimodig and Maria Johansdotter as parents. Several wittnesses comes from Timmery which was an older name for Timmerö, so there is a conection there worth checking up if you do not have better clues. Also somewhere you may find Per Anderssons  parents marriage. If his mother was from Åsbo it is likely that they got married there but otherwise they could have married in Säby or some other parish around Åsbo. Perhaps I should ask you what you have so far regarding Per Andersson? It might help with more information. Is Per Andersson one of your ancestors?

Regards Klas

[Douglas A Nelson]

Thank you very much for your kind help!  Pehr Andersson's son, Anders Pehrsson (b. 20 Apr 1792; Caisa Carlsdotter, mother) is my great-great-great grandfather.  I know Caisa's parents, her birth, marriage and death.  I know a great deal about Pehr's life in Ǻsbo (thanks in no small part to you all), but I hope to find his parents to add one last generation to that lineage.  I guess I will try searching Säby AI:2 (1769-1782) page by page, he may still be with his parents then.  This has rarely worked in other situations but those Säby records are easy to read.  I don't know how to link a marriage record alone to a birth.  Either the birth year or parish (or both) is wrong in the Ǻsbo household exams.  Perhaps I will look in Ǻsbo and Ekeby around 1753 for Pehr's birth.

Thank you, and I'll post if I find anything!
Doug

[Klas Wallén]

I have had a little look at the "Mantalslängderna" which is kind of taxation lists, that you can read free on riksarkivet. For Åsbo and your Per you can use the year 1771 and from 1784 and forward. In 1784 years taxation we can see an unmarried Petter Andersson for Norra Tmmerö and also a Per Andersson married with two children. There is also a croft called Anderstorp with an Anders with wife and children living there but they are probably not Pers parents. In 1771 there are two Anders living in Timmerö Norrgård and also an Olof. (Mantalslängder: 1784 picture 901, 1785 picture 90, and 1771) What is strange is that when your Per Andersson has married his first wife in 1785 we can after that see in the taxation list that there are no Petter Andersson as head of one of the households on Norra Timmerö but instead one living in one of the crofts. Before your Per is married there are one Petter Andersson as head of one of the households.

I have one more idea that you can test. Go thru all Per Anderssons childrens birth records and look for wittnesses from Säby. If Per moved from Säby but had some familly there they might have come to Åsbo for the baptism. You might also look for an Anders from Norra Timmerö in the death records, he might be your Pers father. The marrige between Pers parents is not easy to find but if you notice all marriges in Åsbo and Säby with an Anders around 1740-1753 you can later check them against other persons you will get from the moving lists and baptism records. Perhaps you will be able to finaly find Pers parents. Good luck and let us know if you find them.

Regards Klas

[Britt-Marie Waller]

Per Anderssons daugther Anna Maja Persdotter born 1794-12-15 Åsbo, can be found in AI:8 Ekeby p 43, Karsbo. Her husband Nils Jansson/Johansson is a farm forehand, born 1789 Västra Stenby parish. In 1846 the familj moves to Fagerhult. I have checked the witnesses at their childrens baptism, searching for any relatives.


Where can I find Anders Persson in the parishrecord for Åsbo later in life?

[Douglas A Nelson]

Dear bmw -- Thank you for your interest!  You have made an interesting find!  On the next page (44) of the same Ekeby volume you will find Anna Stina's only full brother, Anders Pehrsson with 3 of his 4 surviving children.  Ander's wife has the same name as his sister!  Anders left Åsbo in 1817 before marrying, lived in Västra Härg for years, then settled in Ekeby.  I did not follow Anna's movements because she is not my ancestor, but was happy to see your discovery.

Dear Klas -- Thanks for suggesting to look at witnesses to the births of Pehr Andersson's  children.  The locations I can recognize immediately are either  Basteberg or Norra Timmero, both in Åsbo.  There are a few others I will have to research.  Interestingly, Caisa Carlsdotter (Pehr's second wife and the only one he had children with) gave birth to an illegitimate child on 11 May 1790.  A "Pehr" from Basteberg is a witness.  Pehr married her in October.
I will see if I can identify any witnesses who came from Säby.  And I will look in the death and marriage records as you suggest.

Thanks again for everyone's help!
Doug

[Douglas A Nelson]

Here I summarize my work looking for Pehr Andersson's birth, and his movements into Åsbo parish.

Possible births for Pehr Andersson.  Åsbo household exams list either 2 Jan 1753 or 2 Jan 1743 as his birthdate.

I searched Säby births 1751-1760: 3 possible/certain Pehr Anderssons born, one in January. 
Säby C3/192 Oct 1753  f: Anders
Säby C3/193  2 Jan 1754  father: probably Jan/Jon
Säby C3/200 30 Apr 1757  f: Anders

I searched also Säby births in January only, 1743-1753.  Found one Pehr Andersson:
Säby C3/169 6 Jan 1744

I did a page search of Säby A2 (1769-1782).  I found two Pehr Anderssons in their families, but with the “wrong” birth years (1757, 1765).  The first (p. 27, born 1757, father: Anders Jonsson) is crossed out with an unclear destination written.  The entire family of the other Pehr (p. 143, b. 1765, father: Anders Persson) is also crossed out, perhaps because the mother died.  No destination is listed.

I searched Åsbo births 1742-1760: No Pehr Andersson born.
There are no birth records for Ekeby then. I have not checked other nearby parishes.

Moving Records

I searched Åsbo C2 & 3 moving in from 1744-1785.  1785 is when we first encounter Pehr in an Åsbo household exam.  I began in 1744 to check the possibility he moved with his family.  He would be too young to travel alone in the first two records below.  If he was born in 1743/1744, he would have been old enough to be married (to Elizabeth Månsdotter in the records below).  Had he been born in 1744, he would have been 100 years old at his death!  A more likely 1753-1757 birth date would rule out all but the last two moving records.

Åsbo C:2/99  4 May 1758 Per Andersson from Mjolby 
Åsbo C:2/103  15 Nov 1761 Per Andersson from Ekeby
Åsbo C:2/103  31 Oct 1762 Per Andersson with husfru Elizabeth Månsdotter
Åsbo C:2/103  14 Nov 1762 Per Andersson from W. Stens (?)
Åsbo C:2/116    3 June 1771 Per Andersson with husfru Elizabeth Månsdotter from Harg
Åsbo C:2/118  8 Nov 1772 Per Andersson (I can’t read)
Åsbo C:3/493 8 June 1783 Pehr Andersson from Ekeby to Timmero (?)  It appears he is with an Anna.

The last moving in record seems most promising.  If I read the destination correctly, he moved to where we first found him in Åsbo in 1785 (Timmero).  But Anna would have to have died so that Pehr could marry Helena Mansdotter (his first wife in Åsbo) in 1785.  It appears that someone named Anna did die on 4 May 1784 (Åsbo C:3/517).  32 years old?  I can’t read this record.

There are no moving records for Ekeby prior to 1807, so I cannot check if he moved from Säby to Ekeby, and there are no household exams in Ekeby before 1808. I cannot read the writing in the Säby moving records to see if he moved from there to Ekeby.

None of this is very convincing.  It could just as easily be that Pehr was born somewhere other than Säby parish.  Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Klas Wallén]

Hi!

I had a look at the last two Per Andersson and the one who moves to Åsbo in 1772 comes from Ulrika Parish and moves to a Jonas in Hästorp. The one who moves to Åsbo in 1783 moves in to Timmey with his wife Anna and two daughters. I think that he is the one I found in the mantalslängd for 1784, married with two children. Your Per is probably the one who lives on his own in Timmerö in 1784. He might be the one who moves to Jonas in 1772 perhaps he worked in Hästorp as a dräng but we can't know for sure. Also Ulrika is not a neighbor parish to Säby though it is not very far away either. I hope to be able to have some more looks at this problem which is interesting. I let you know if I find anything.

Regards

Klas

[Klas Wallén]

Hi Doug!

Now my wife and I have had some time to go thru some of the church books in Åsbo and Säby and I have found some interesting things and perhaps some relatives to you.

First I must say that it is still a very tricky problem and I also had a look at Cajsa Carlsdotters ancestors and there were some problems there too with the priest probably noted the wrong year, month and/or days for birth and marriage. It seems that the church books in Åsbo is not so reliable when it comes to the facts in other Parishes. Anyway we went thru the books and apparently there are few candidates for your Per Andersson and his father in the moving register and birth records. If the Priest made a mistake with Säby it will be very difficult to find the right Peter but if Säby is the right Parish there are a few alternatives. If it is not necessary the correct year, month and day noted in Åsbo, I found an interesting Peter Andersson born in 1753-03-04 in Säthälla in Säby (C/3 page 191). My wife googled him and found a page with genealogical research from a person (Lars) now living in Boxholm Östergötland. He is also in a straight line related to Peter Andersson thru his son Anders and his son Anders Andersson born 1819-02-16. If he is your ancestors too you and I may share a common ancestor way back in time on his wife's side. According to this person your Peter Andersson was the one I found in Säby born 1753-03-04. He do not explain how he comes to that conclusion though. I had a look in the household examination book AI/1 page 350 and found that in 1759 and forward there was a Per in Säthälla but he was to young to be the one born in 1753 though it was the same parents. According the death records no Per died in Säthälla. In 1760 the parents to Peter born in 1753 got a new son called Peter. He lives when the mother died in 1783 and was noticed as 21 years old but not where he lived at that time. I suggest that you look up that Peters siblings and see if you can find your Peter as a witness at their children’s baptisms. One thing that make me think it is still the wrong Peter is that if he was born in 1760 his first wife was much older than him. Worth checking up though. I also found three other possible Peter Andersson. One born in October 1753 with father Anders Larsson and mother Margareta, and one Peter born in Kolshult 1755-09-26 to soldier Anders and mother Elin Persdotter (page 196 Säby C/3). Another Per Andersson is the son to the soldier wettersten(?) and mother Maria born Dec 31 1754 (page 195 Säby  C/3) Perhaps you should see if you can find them in the household examination books and see if they have some sisters and brothers and see if your Peter is a witness on their children’s baptisms.
  I will also give you the link to the site we found so you can look for some more things there. I asked my uncle who also lives in Boxholm and he knew about Lars and was a classmate to his younger brother. It is a small world :-) Lars have his email adress on that site if you like to get in touch with him, or if you like I can call him on the phone first.

I deleted the link because I do not think it is ok on this site to give away another persons adress. I will send it to you in a personal message that you can see if you go to the page that we can see the questions for today(Forum). There you can see who are online right now and your name is there when you are online. Under the names can be seen Privata Meddelanden. Click there and you can read my message with the link.


Regards Klas